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Ivan Zhao

1 episode

Episodes

Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal

Mar 6, 20251h 12m

Guest: Ivan Zhao - Co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan is a deeply philosophical founder known for his unique approach to building one of the most beloved productivity tools, Notion, which he describes as a "Lego for software." Key Takeaways: Iterative Product Development: Ivan emphasizes the importance of being willing to reset and iterate on the product, even if it means starting from scratch, to find the right product-market fit. Balancing Vision and Practicality: Notion's success came from hiding its complex vision behind a simple, everyday productivity tool, which Ivan describes as "sugar-coated broccoli." Staying Lean: Ivan advocates for maintaining a small, talent-dense team to stay agile and efficient, which he likens to driving a small, maneuverable bus. Craft and Values: Building products with a focus on craft and values ensures they are not only functional but also aligned with the creator's vision and aesthetics. Horizontal Product Challenges: Building a horizontal tool like Notion requires focusing on segmentation and creating solutions that cater to specific use cases while maintaining the flexibility of a "Lego" system. Topics Covered: Notion's early years, product-market fit, staying lean, balancing vision and practicality, craft and values, building horizontal products, AI integration, leadership challenges.

Notable Quotes

โ€œThe tools are extensions of us. That's why our office room named as timeless tools. They extend us a little bit.โ€

Tools and human potential

โ€œIf you are making software, if you know how to code or design, this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people.โ€

Software and human intellect

โ€œI wish more people look beyond tech to steal good ideas.โ€

Innovation and learning from other domains